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Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?

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Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« on: November 07, 2012, 09:34:57 PM »
 

Empress of Jurai

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After I watched the 3rd OVAs, I couldn't help but notice that a lot of fans hate it. There complaints usually come from the following
1. The execution of story was poor
2. the added characters are useless
3. the new developments( Tenchi being a god, Washu being a goddess, etc.) make no sense
4. It changed things established earlier
I can't help but notice they especially hate Noike. I really don't get the hate. What do you guys think?
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2012, 10:18:14 PM »
 

جبريل 無道

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They see Noike transplanting Kiyone, a character they liked, some of them rabidly.  That simple.  (No offense, I'm extremely rabid too for other characters.)

Here's the impasse: 

Kajishima spent 4 years before the OAVs even started developing this story and then all the years after it, including the 8-9 years between OAV2 and OAV3 developing the story.  And many years since then.  Since writing his novels, he's ahead of us (and I think a cause of OAV3's less than stellar storyline).  And other people pushed out 8 years of other "Tenchi" product, including Hasegawa's Kiyone Makibi, onto the market which he has no control of.  Kajishima comes back onto the scene and what he introduces doesn't fit people's perceptions because it's not like 75% of Tenchi out there.  This is aided and abetted by the East/West divide; Western fans have literally not seen the world of doujins/novels out there.  Not really anyone's fault, but he's just not making it for us anymore than J.K. Rowling wrote Harry Potter for the likes and tastes of Chinese fans.  Oh well, the world doesn't revolve around us.

And it's not just MK's stuff.  All they know is mostly the anime and maybe the Okuda manga.  Add-on mangas like TMiL2: Eternal Memory, rattle people here, I know.  They declare it "not canon" to TU, in spite of being written by the same director, because they argue it's not in the movie, despite Japanese accepting different official media as canon unless told otherwise.

I see the fandom split into two major groups:

OAV fans.  They might like all or some of the OAV, but they generally don't make a big fuss in the world over it.  They don't want the OAV to become more like the other, later AUs.  (Mihoshi becoming more TU-like in OAV3 was bad enough for some.)

and

TU fans.  They like the characterization of TU (namely it being strictly a love triangle, Sasami being a simple little kid, Mihoshi being dumb and that's it) over OAV.  The one characterization I have never seen them quite fully embrace was the Washu being the incompetent mad scientist, half of whose attempts blow up - they fully and gladly take OAV Washu.  And guess what, they want the OAV-only elements too - Ryoko/Washu mother/daughter connection, maybe Tsunami, and that type of stuff.  Plunder all the "good" stuff but leave the TU/TMiL/TMiL2 plots in place for the most part. 

TU fans do the majority of complaining.  I would say the major hangup of 80% of them is that OAV3 wasn't about Ryoko, or Tenchi/Ryoko, and didn't have a major Tenchi/Ryoko theme at the end to make up for it.  Harem is a sin.  A "cop out" and all that.  If OAV3 had ended with a Tenchi/Ryoko kiss near the end, instead of a Tenchi/Misaki, all it's other failings would have been put in perspective, downplayed, and it proclaimed awesome despite the flaws.  My own opinion is that without the OAV, Tenchi is just another mediocre anime.

I know this is true.  For the longest time they worship at the altar of Hasegawa, for the simple fact that she's OAV1 scriptwriter and did the MnE movie (plus guest wrote the Mirei episode in TU but most don't know that).  Ryoko got major slapped by Tenchi in that movie, but it was all made good in the end because she got a big chunk of the ending (fight with the baddie and other stuff. 

Hasegawa became their patron saint, despite them not knowing anything else of her 13 novels (which was never translated).  From my own research, there are very few to no reviews out there on her stuff, and extremely little discussion.  From the pictures of the novels, and some limited synopsis, what she wrote makes my skin crawl.  Achika not being the sanitized figure of TMiL, but simply marrying Nobuyuki because he looked like her father, after she failed the Tenchi-ken test (pulling the sword from Funaho), permanently shortening her life, and the other man she loved left her while she was recovering and broke her heart.  Some woman paedophile chasing after Sasami in one book, another creep after Ayeka, Kiyone being dropped into a Ghost and Goblins D&D adventure as the entire basis for another novel.  Egads.  I think if those things were actually translated, people would be less than thrilled with the "Tenchi feel" she provides the series.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 10:36:22 PM by جبريل 無道 »
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Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2012, 10:34:45 PM »
 

Tenchi Ryu

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Because Tenchi is a shitty fucking fanbase here over seas. I don't even consider myself part of the fanbase honestly, and just consider myself a follower of Kajishima to be specific.


The End.

And yes, the japanese fanbase DO look at our asses like we are crazy. They don't get the shit either. Can't think of another fanbase who shits on its own creator as much as this one, except maybe Evangelion and Naruto at times.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 10:38:09 PM by Tenchi Ryu »
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2012, 11:30:52 PM »
 

shades of blue

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After I watched the 3rd OVAs, I couldn't help but notice that a lot of fans hate it. There complaints usually come from the following


1. The execution of story was poor
Not really, with the exception of episode 5 the story flows rather nicely. In some ways OVA2 was more broken, as only a few of the episodes chained together and the final episode was originally meant to take place much later point in time.

2. the added characters are useless
To western fans, that'd be accurate. But to Japanese fans, it's a chance to see the character's they've read about since Kajishima released the first Shin-Tenchi Muyo! novel back in 1997. Plus most of those characters were introduced in GXP and would have played a greater part in OVA3, had AIC continued to fund the series.

3. the new developments( Tenchi being a god, Washu being a goddess, etc.) make no sense
I love that one. They always claim there was nothing to hint at Washu being a goddess, yet the silhouettes of Washu & Tsunami are shown behind Tokimi in Special 1 & OVA2. Gee, I cannot imagine why a "mad scientist" would be shown next to a known goddess and some woman who appears to have no physical body. HERP FUCKIN' DERP!


4. It changed things established earlier
What are these "established things" you speak of? Kiyone Makibi never officially existed in TM!R and do you really want Tenchi to be responsible for his mothers death? In Hawegawa's novel Tenchi's "power" accidentally activated and it killed her. Hawegawa's Tenchi also slaps bitches and relies on cheap gimmicks like a knockoff Christmas, guest appearances by Slayers rejects, the stuck in a video game angle, etc. Sounds like a great world...  ::)


I can't help but notice they especially hate Noike. I really don't get the hate. What do you guys think?
Because it's not their Universe Kiyone Makibi, you know the one who was clearly not interested in Tenchi and everyone made gay jokes about.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 12:02:52 PM by shades of blue »
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2012, 11:33:51 PM »
 

جبريل 無道

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1. The execution of story was poor
Not really, with the exception of episode 5 the story flows rather nicely. In some ways OVA2 was more broken, as only a few of the episodes chained together and the final episode was originally meant to take place much later point in time.

In OAV3ep1, the flashbacks were extremely jarring, especially the clashing styles, and I could have gone without the whole thing.  This would be my biggest complaint.
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Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2012, 11:34:11 PM »
 

Tenchi Ryu

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Yea, I've seen these all before, This is usually how I answer em...

1. The execution of story was poor
Well I guess OVA 2 was poor too, considering OVA 3 followed the exact same concept as 2. Introduce new characters(even introduced Clay in the final 3 episodes JUST like Misao), incorporate them into the plot and interact with the Main cast. OVA 2 even got the SAME last episodes info dump when explaining why Clay wanted Washu and how Jurai wanted Ryoko clones, just not has harsh as 3's...

Ova 2 new characters: Clay, Zero, Misaki, Funaho, Asuza, Tokimi

Ova 3 new characters who did NOT have a significant part in GXP: Tennyo, Noike, Kagato-chan, Misao, Mashisu, Z

That's LITERALLY just one more character than OVA 2 not including Tokimi.


2. the added characters are useless
this usually weeds out a TU fan as Jibs mentions, considering they barely pay attention to the story. 9 times out of 10, these are the same ones always asking questions.....that's been answered already.

Noike is literally connected to Kagato (and indirectly Naja) in a significant way (check out my Noike explanation thread), Seto Tennyo and Airi are important to the GXP world (again which most TU fans barely even watched, if at all) and Z did everything he did because he was trying to HELP Tenchi. Poor guy just didn't realize that Tenchi doesn't need the help. And the Kuramitsu's are a big piece of the story, because of politics. Misao and Mashisu are literally the reason Jurai and Seniwa has a stronger bond now, and that's before Mihoshi has to marry Tenchi.

3. the new developments( Tenchi being a god, Washu being a goddess, etc.) make no sense
Once again, people just not paying attention to shit. We found out from episode 6 that Tenchi is no normal person. We get a detailed explanation that LHW's being developed by ANYTHING other than a ship is JUST NOT NORMAL. We are also told EXPLICITLY that this power is the manifestation of the goddesses power. So if LHWs are the goddesses power, and Tenchi can MAKE HIS OWN, DAFUQ you think Kajishima is hinting at? And If Washu being a goddesses makes no sense, you completely missed the ENTIRE POINT of the OVA series. No, this story is not about 7 people in the Masaki house, they are just the catalyst. Its all about the Goddesses plan, procedure, results and conclusion. They ARE the plot, literally.


4. It changed things established earlier

Yea I hear this one too....

"Ryoko was made a bitch": That's what happens when you introduce something called character development. You'd think a Ryoko fan would like this. She became closer to Ryo-ohki, showed she was significantly more aware of what was happening around her (thanks to fusing with Zero) and directly challenged the entire concept of arranged marriages to the heads of Jurai and Seinwa (in their face), the same chick who at first didn't care about anything but destruction. People getting butthurt when Ryoko should receive a damn medal. She was the pinnacle of character development of this series. But you want to waste time complaining about some damn ears....REALLY? Nah, they want the mean ass bitchy Ryoko who acts immature and fucks shit up.

Other than that, its usually subjective shit like the art and music that gets ragged. Do yourself a favor and compare OVA 3 art to other 2003 anime. Blows that shit out the water. And who in the fuck is gonna use Cel frames? Nigga this not 1999 anymore. Got to catch up with the times folks. We are digital now.

Now does OVA 3 has its flaws? No doubt. Is it not as good as OVA 1+2? No doubt. But its nowhere near this monstrosity most complain it to be unless they specifically didn't get something they wanted, this usually is either a Kiyone fan or Ryoko shipper who's the most vocal.

But time and time again, it shows that its just people letting their nostalgia get in the way of properly judging a Show. Unbiased people who watch the entire OVA series in one run never have these same issues as the old head Toonami fans do.

Myanimelist Ratings...

Ova 1 rating: 7.84 out of 10 from 13,547 viewers

Ova 2 rating: 7.87 out of 10 from 8, 691 viewers

Ova 3 rating 7.50 out of 10 from 6,660 viewers

That's a 0.34 difference from the first OVA, no where near enough to be acting like the shit was the plague.

The reason the old heads get annoying is because they act like the old ex girlfriend who just can't get over it. I can name about 4-5 people here off the top of my head that don't necessarily hold OVA 3 to a high place, but you don't see them squeezing in a bitch fit every other week. I don't see Jibs making a thread every chance she gets to explain the things she didn't like. I dont' see Gaston making threads all the about how Kajishima is a idiot and should give the series to someone else. Hell, I don't even see myself making Kiyone bashing threads, because its a waste of TIME.

Can't even have a damn discussion with the fanbase because if it ain't about fanart, roleplaying or character threads, they could give a shit. Its a damn shame that the fanbase has to literally split into cliques over this shit and constantly talk shit about the other side...its just some damn anime. Ain't like we fighting over pussy or some money or some shit....Nah....some Tenchi shit.

The reason I get ticked off is because if you wanted to talk about something plotwise, you can't because people either won't know, won't care to find out, and then find the opportunity to start complaining, when the info is right in front of you. I was LITERALLY able to find out Noike is Kagato, how and why it happened from listening to Washu speak. That's all I had to do. But nah, they only care about the 7 masaki household members doing random pointless shit in a ship in outerspace looking for money and shit leading to the one dimensional bad guy getting beat in the most convential shounen way....sigh.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 11:38:13 PM by Tenchi Ryu »
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2012, 01:01:07 AM »
 

SimmyC

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Well, I'd give a more responsive... response, except there is a lot of wall of text above me that I'm currently too lazy to read. My fault for being lazy. ;)

I'll give my thoughts about it then. :D

One issue was the time between OVA2 and OVA3. This meant undue hype that, no matter how good OVA3 was, made it difficult to live up to. But that's for long time Tenchi Fans. Newers ones? Well... while I like OVA3...

1. The execution of story was poor
Over all, I will say I was disappointed with OVA 3 story execution. But I don't hate it. I just thought that it held a lot of potential that, because of length restrictions (not, at least less, the fault of Kajishima and more the limited budget and limited amount of episodes he was given), just didn't feel right flow wise. For me, the first 5 episodes of so, which had flashback, info dump, and the introduction (at least for the anime) of Mihoshi's brother and love interest antics felt, filleresque I guess. The info dump part might have been a necessity given again, the limited amount of time he had to work with. But that's stuff that, IMO, works better either drawn out in a visual medium, or something that is better as a novel. I was especially disappointed with the Choushin War since it was, for all intent and purpose, relegated to only one episode. While the antics of the brother got a few more.

Again, I don't blame Kajishima, but what he was forced to work with. Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou suffered the same problem. Tons of awesome story perfect for 24-26 episodes... crammed into 13 instead with side OVAs at the end (which never got finished because the company making the anime went under. But that's another series talk for another day~).

2. the added characters are useless
I admit, I'm one of those people that got annoyed that it wasn't the Kiyone we knew. But Noike instead. The first time I heard about her. However, older, more educated, I now realize she's an integral part of the OVA timeline that, and this is again another slash against Western fans of Tenchi Muyo, were unable to realize since we don't get the True Tenchi Novels here.

Mihoushi's brother (even forgot the name.  ;D) I kind of saw less reason to dedicate the number of episodes for him. But at the same time, didn't think he was useless per say. I may have preferred a more side story role for him in like, maybe a manga or a spinoff OVA instead of it being in the big 'OVA 3' series. But I have nothing against him generally speaking.

The other characters were seen if you have watched GXP. And you could say were developed in that series. Which again, hurts WESTERN Tenchi Muyo fan's discovery of Noike since, while you do get her back story, it might have felt to most WESTERN fans that this somehow an ass pull to get a new character in the show. That 'usurps' the mainstays. Again, due to things like not having the True Tenchi Novels translated and these Tenchi Muyo fans being 'casuals' that only watched the anime. Probably not realizing that Tenchi Universe or those movies aren't a part of that timeline. ::)

3. the new developments( Tenchi being a god, Washu being a goddess, etc.) make no sense
Tenchi Muyo to me was always a complicated series. Even more I discovered websites that explained, or tried to explain all the connections and theories. Though I can understand casual fans that want things simple and easy to understand packages not liking it. Well, I'm not one of them.

4. It changed things established earlier
I guess I can see where someone could say that. But since I've always known the series to be a huge complex universe, it didn't occur to me that something might have 'changed'.

So in conclusion... OVA 3 was still good series. Flawed? Yes. Good as the first two OVAs? Nope even if I take off my Nostalgia glasses and try to judge the first two with today's standards, would still go with the first two. But my complaints isn't so much rage that OVA 3 gets in these 'debates', but more disappointment. However, just seeing the characters again and in that timeline still makes me squeal like a little girl. And I'd be there Day 1 if OVA 4 was ever made.
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2012, 01:24:23 AM »
 

Tenchi Ryu

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Agree with what a lot of Simmy said. Its one thing being disappointed by certain parts, but when people are making statements like "This show completely ruined my experience with Tenchi and I still to this days get mad about it"....You need to go find some hobbies lol.

If I could make some reasonable changes to OVA 3....

-Tell AIC to STFU and give Kaji the original number of episodes he wanted to do. The DVD sales were clearly decent, so you have no reason to cut it. ISM clearly showed us Kaji can wrap a series up nicely if you give him the time he wants.

-Keep the Misao x Mashisu plot, but use this plot to dive into the explanation for what we all want to know, Mihoshi's past.

-Connect as close as you can to Isekai, around the time period during the Noike x Tenchi doujin would be good.

-Like Jibs mentioned, cut the 1st episode recap. I know its been a while, but the real fans shouldn't need it.

-Don't cut the scene with Tenchi and Kagato/Noike seeing Misaki in the future. Would do a great deal helping to explain the dynamic.

-Try to better incorporate GXP elements, like actually showing a present Seina/Kiriko cameo to better wrap GXP in OVA canon.

-Do a flashback scene with doing a comparison of what Tenchi thought was his mom was, and what she really was. Would do a better job of showing the dynamic of why Tenchi used false perception of his past with his mom.

-Probably should have shown some past Tennyo, specifically in her brown hair form to show she WAS around and we the audience just weren't aware.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 01:29:22 AM by Tenchi Ryu »
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 03:32:15 AM »
 

Harls

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Wow, you guys forgot the most egregious sin of all...  ;)

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Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2012, 04:41:48 AM »
 

Gaston

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I though Mona Marshall was okay.  :P About, ova 3, I am not a big fan of it but I don't think it is the worst. The only problem start with episode 18 who focus on Mashiru and Misao which I don't care about and episode 19 should have been done in two episodes at least.

BTW, I always found funny people said Tenchi being the god coming from nowhere. What he did with the black hole in ova 2 was not clear he is very 'special' ? I also remember people complaining how Ryoko was slap by others characters, but apparently when it is MIsaki who did it in ova 2 it is apparently okay.  ::)

Can't think of another fanbase who shits on its own creator as much as this one, except maybe Evangelion and Naruto at times.

The dude who created Bleach is not a punching-ball too ?
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2012, 07:42:39 AM »
 

shades of blue

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Can't think of another fanbase who shits on its own creator as much as this one, except maybe Evangelion and Naruto at times.

The dude who created Bleach is not a punching-ball too ?

If 4chan is anything to go by, he's only an internet punching bag for everyone that hates Bleach. The ones still reading/watching Bleach don't seem to realize he's an idiot or want to acknowledge it. When confronted with the fact that Kubo wrote for the longest time with no regard to future events, because he did not know about story mapping til very much later in the series, ask for sources.
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2012, 08:36:09 AM »
 

Dr.Soviet

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Lots of good stuff in here I want new members to see.
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 09:27:19 AM »
 

Zigra

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And Tenchi being a "god" was meant to be a secret, so obviously there would not be any hints.

Actually, we did get hints about that in OAV 2. When Tenchi reversed the power of that black hole, he was said to have "changed the gravitational constant" in order to do it. So, in layman's terms, he changed the laws of physics to his own personal whim. Pretty big hint about his true nature. Not that you can tell that to the haters.
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 11:06:13 AM »
 

Empress of Jurai

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After I watched the 3rd OVAs, I couldn't help but notice that a lot of fans hate it. There complaints usually come from the following


1. The execution of story was poor
Not really, with the exception of episode 5 the story flows rather nicely. In some ways OVA2 was more broken, as only a few of the episodes chained together and the final episode was originally meant to take place much later point in time.

2. the added characters are useless
To western fans, that'd be accurate. But to Japanese fans, it's a chance to see the character's they've read about since Kajishima released the first Shin-Tenchi Muyo! novel back in 1997. Plus most of those characters were introduced in GXP and would have played a greater part in OVA3, had AIC continued to fund the series.

3. the new developments( Tenchi being a god, Washu being a goddess, etc.) make no sense
I love that one. They always claim there was nothing to hint at Washu being a goddess, yet the silhouettes of Washu & Tsunami are shown behind Tokimi in Special 1 & OVA2. Gee, I cannot imagine why a "mad scientist" would be shown next to a known goddess and some woman who appears to have no physical body. HERP FUCKIN' DERP!
And Tenchi being a "god" was meant to be a secret, so obviously there would not be any hints.


4. It changed things established earlier
What are these "established things" you speak of? Kiyone Makibi never officially existed in TM!R and do you really want Tenchi to be responsible for his mothers death? In Hawegawa's novel Tenchi's "power" accidentally activated and it killed her. Hawegawa's Tenchi also slaps bitches and relies on cheap gimmicks like a knockoff Christmas, guest appearances by Slayers rejects, the stuck in a video game angle, etc. Sounds like a great world...  ::)


I can't help but notice they especially hate Noike. I really don't get the hate. What do you guys think?
Because it's not their Universe Kiyone Makibi, you know the one who was clearly not interested in Tenchi and everyone made gay jokes about.

these aren't my reasons, they're just the usual excuses I hear. Just wanted to clarify that
 

Re: Why do people hate the 3rd OVA?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 11:06:58 AM »
 

جبريل 無道

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1. The execution of story was poor
Over all, I will say I was disappointed with OVA 3 story execution. But I don't hate it. I just thought that it held a lot of potential that, because of length restrictions (not, at least less, the fault of Kajishima and more the limited budget and limited amount of episodes he was given), just didn't feel right flow wise. For me, the first 5 episodes of so, which had flashback, info dump, and the introduction (at least for the anime) of Mihoshi's brother and love interest antics felt, filleresque I guess. The info dump part might have been a necessity given again, the limited amount of time he had to work with. But that's stuff that, IMO, works better either drawn out in a visual medium, or something that is better as a novel. I was especially disappointed with the Choushin War since it was, for all intent and purpose, relegated to only one episode. While the antics of the brother got a few more.

Again, I don't blame Kajishima, but what he was forced to work with.

I agree with most of this post but Idk if I quite accept that last line.  Every OAV episode is precious.  Every one.  You just shouldn't waste time on frivolous things.  And Kajishima was given 6-7 to work with, totally in line with the norm of the show up to then.  Mashisu was frivolous, character development of a tertiary character.  I thought it was very qoot that Mihoshi has a younger brother, it added some depth to her.  I like Misao a lot (younger form, not grown up form).  In fact, if Mihoshi doesn't get Tenchi, I would have paired her with him.  But I cared 0 about Mashisu and I still don't get why I should.

There were other problems.  One of the biggest irks for me is Rea claiming she was a huge part of Tenchi's life.  Yet we don't see her or hear about her until OAV3.  I would much rather hear the claim that Nobuyuki hid her and their relationship than anything - perhaps due to Tenchi's devotion to his mother.  Tenchi isn't supposed to have had women in his life, it would explain part of him, being raised by only men, having that look of yearning for a family when Funaho confronts him in episode 13 - about taking Sasami and Ayeka away and if he wants to come with.

Info dumps are not ever necessary imo.  It's the exact antithesis of story telling.  A lot of story telling is the journey from information point to information point, in presenting it, in playing the audience.  So much of propaganda is the narration, because that's telling a story.  Info dumps have no narrative.  If we were talking science, yes, but we're talking fictional worlds here.

Pressed for time, I would have made the episodes less ambitious, and slapped an indefinite "To be continued...." on there rather than info dump.  The time to have plot elements with a list of bullet points is in a doujin.  I don't think the case can be made that OAV3 has the natural flow of OAV1/2.  It just doesn't.

Now, I'm not going to hate on MK, I can only hope the next OAV, if ever, is better.  Because Seikishi Monogatari has the flow again, to a large extent with much less info dumping.
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