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The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum

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The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« on: February 20, 2022, 10:35:40 PM »
 

DishonorableKnight

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As I mentioned in my introduction, I was banned from Tenchiforum. If this doesn't break any rules, I'm going to give the entire story of what happened from my perspective, both because I want to get it out of my system and because the people in Tenchiforum have so far refused to even give me a chance to explain things the way I see them. So, I want everyone here instead to listen to what I have to say.

For some background, I joined the Tenchiforum Discord server in late 2019, soon after I had become a fan of the series itself (I started with Tenchi Universe) and I had just started using Discord. From then on, I was one of the most frequent users on the server and came to know most of the other regulars. At the same time, I had started working on the Tenchi.fandom wiki and quickly became one of its most frequent contributors. Eventually, the wiki's admin, Antvasima (which, by the way, hey Antvasmia!) decided to promote me and Nonsuch Ned (another frequent contributor) to fellow admins on the wiki. I have to say, things were and have continued to go pretty well on the wiki, and we've managed to fill in a lot of the previously-empty gaps of information. Namely, I have so far personally created and written 54 episode pages (mostly for Magical Project S and GXP), but now I'm just tooting my own horn so I'll continue.

Dagon123, the founder/owner of Tenchiforum, was on hiatus for a long period of time (I don't remember the exact time span, but it was at least half a year), but came back in late 2021 and soon after announced on the Tenchiforum website the creation of "tenchimuyowiki.com", his own personal Tenchi Muyo! wiki that ran on the same stuff as Wikipedia. As I found out, I wasn't the only one found wondering why Dagon would go through the trouble of creating a brand new Tenchi Muyo! wiki when there's already a wiki. As I found out through Dagon's answer to Nonsuch Ned's questions about that very topic, Dagon explicitly created his own wiki because he believes quote:

Quote
"the majority of the admins on that wiki have been and always will be pro-Kajishima and will stifle anything that challenges that, including reality."
You can view the entire conversation here, at the bottom of the page: https://tenchiforum.com/tenchimuyowiki-com-officially-launches/

As I learned through various discussions on Tenchiforum Discord, the community there, generally speaking, has a very negative view of Masaki Kajishima, and they have virtually nothing positive to say about him or how he has handled the franchise. In fact, in my roughly two years being on the server, I do not recall a single person saying a single positive thing about the post-2000s OVA continuity (OVA 3/4/5, GXP, Geminar, etc.) In fact, the people on Tenchiforum barely even mentioned the post-2000s OVA continuity at all.

Obviously, I don't dispute Dagon's assertion that he has the right to create a second Tenchi Muyo! wiki, but there's a difference between having the right to do something and actually doing it. Texas can theoretically split itself up into a maximum of five states, but it hasn't for obvious reasons. Likewise, anyone in the past ten years could've created a new Tenchi Muyo! wiki, but they haven't because there already is one.

Dagon's response to Ned's questions has led me to believe that his creation of a new wiki is a decision made out of extreme pretentiousness; that is, by creating a new wiki that he personally owns, he is attempting to reinforce the notion that Tenchiforum is "the" Tenchi Muyo! fan community, a claim supported by the procedure one needs to even be allowed to edit on Dagon's wiki. As he outlines on the Tenchiforum website (seen here at: https://tenchiforum.com/forums/topic/beginners-guide/) the only way to start editing would be to own:

1. A Discord account;
2. A Tenchiforum Account; and
3. A Tenchimuyowiki account, which can only be created by... you guessed it, Dagon.

So, in order to even be allowed to participate, you must be an approved member of Tenchiforum that is personally vetted by Dagon, no if, and, or buts about it.

Personally, I find it quite ironic that Dagon accuses Tenchi.fandom wiki of stifling any "anti-Kajishima" views, while simultaneously giving himself the power to prevent anyone he doesn't know, like, or agrees with from participating in editing a wiki that ought to serve the entire Tenchi Muyo! fanbase. Considering Dagon did not provide any evidence to support his assertion that Tenchi.fandom wiki silences dissent, you have to wonder: which wiki is really more authoritarian, ours or his?

Now, here is the part that actually got me banned from Tenchiforum. We three admins on Tenchi.fandom wiki use a message thread on Nonsuch Ned's profile titled "wiki tasks" as a medium to communicate and coordinate our efforts. It's not a private thread since it can be viewed by anyone who knows where they're looking, but it's also not a general discussion board that's advertised to everyone. So, on January 23rd, I posted a message on "wiki tasks" saying:

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"This might just be my sudden urge to metaphorically kick Dagon123 and his no-content wiki in the balls, but I think that we should definitively address the biggest grievance he and Tenchiforum have against us, which is our use of the word 'canon'."

As a bit of context, one of the discussions that I had on Tenchiforum Discord was how most everyone disapproved of how, supposedly, Tenchi.fandom considers the OVA continuity to be the "canon" continuity, with a single page, in particular, provoking their ire ("Tenchi Muyo continuities") which I have since edited to remove the offending word. I made this post because I legitimately believed at the time that, by addressing some of the problems Tenchiforum had with our wiki, Dagon would change his mind and not go through with making his own wiki (which, in hindsight, was very na´ve thinking).

Specifically, I said I wanted to metaphorically kick Dagon and his wiki in the balls as a flavorful way of expressing my desire to out-do him, not that I actually wanted to hurt him (which I exactly why I added the word "metaphorically" before, as in, I didn't mean it literally). Furthermore, I described his wiki as "no-content" because... well take a look for yourself. Dagon's wiki has been online for over a month and a half, yet as of the time I'm making this message, it only has three pages filled out. I suppose that it should be expected since no one besides Dagon has bothered contributing to his wiki (honestly, who could've seen that coming?).

So, the discussion ended with us admins agreeing to ax the word "canon" from the wiki entirely (something I proudly announced on Tenchiforum Discord, albeit to no response), and things proceeded normally. Fast forward to February 8th, I get off working to suddenly find that I can't find Tenchiforum on my Discord dashboard. As I quickly realized, I had been banned from the server without warning. I DM Dagon on his Twitter account to ask about what happened, but his only response was to post a screenshot of my message on "wiki tasks".

It'd be a hassle to try and screenshot the DMs from my Twitter, so I'll just copy/paste my responses to Dagon's reply:

Quote
"Okay, one, I'm not wrong. Your wiki has no content, and I must say that I was genuinely angered that you decided to make your own wiki instead of, you know, just helping with the one that's been online for about ten years. And to be fair, we DID agree to drop the word "canon".
Second, I did not say a single disparaging remark about yourself or your wiki on the Tenchiforum Discord server, nor did I insult anyone who wanted to help you give suggestions."

"
Quote
So, I find it extremely unfair that you're punishing me for something I said off Tenchiforum. We're both Americans, aren't we? Shouldn't we promote freedom of speech?"
, and

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"*Sigh*. Okay, look, I don't want to be kicked off Tenchiforum Discord over this. You have your opinions, and I have mine, but I want to try and extend the olive branch and resolve this because this doesn't have to go down like this. If you want me to apologize for what I said, then I'll do it. Just say the word, and I'll do it."

What, may you wonder, was Dagon's response to my attempt at apologizing? He blocked me on Twitter. Undeterred, I went to the Tenchiforum subreddit and made an appeal directly to Dagon, again offering to extend the olive branch and apologize. His response? He banned me from the subreddit. At the same time, I DM's someone I knew on Tenchiforum Discord and he confirmed that I was banned because of what I said on Tenchi.fandom, and he showed me an announcement that "Who" (one of the moderators of the server) made regarding my ban. Get a kick out of it:

Quote
Since the user DishonorableKnight is spamming people's inboxes, we're gonna' get this out in the open.

DK was banned. He's not taking it well. He'd been snarky, skirting the rules for some time (very upset that we're doing a wiki), all of which we've allowed to a point.

But, he's publicly trash talking and posting unsavory language about what he wants to do to the admin? Yeah, no, we're not inviting someone like that to our clubhouse. This also isn't the entirety of the messages he's sent, much of which constitutes gaslighting and trying to get dagon to send something that he can twist out of context. For instance, rather than just apologizing for his remarks, he's claiming about how he wants to extend an olive branch, and is attempting cowardly tactics of DMing people behind everyone else's backs.

Well, we're not playing that game. We're cutting ties. Of course, if anyone else wants to talk with him, that's your business. But he's not allowed back in here, that decision is final.

Here's the link (until one of them decides to delete it) along with screencaps. But anyways, nothing anyone on here has to worry about. Regrettably, this has gotten to a point where we've felt the need to get this aired out.

Carry on, folks.

In summary, Who accuses me of:
1. Breaking/skirting rules; false.

There are eleven rules on the Tenchiforum Discord (seen here: https://tenchimuyowiki.com/TenchiWiki:Discord), and in my two years of being there, I did not break a single one.

2. Publicly trash-talking and threatening Dagon; false.

As I said, I made that remark on an isolated message thread, not a general discussion forum as Who implies. Additionally, as I mentioned previously, I didn't literally threaten to hurt Dagon, but only that I wanted to "out-do" him, per se.

3. Attempting to "gaslight" (a word whose definition I still don't fully understand) Dagon and manipulate him instead of apologizing; false.

As you can see from my Twitter DM's, I did not attempt to "manipulate" Dagon into getting him to say something he didn't intend. I literally, unquestionably, attempted to apologize (even when I thought I didn't need to apologize) for what I said and let bygones be bygones. I was the one who tried acting like an adult to resolve the issue, and Dagon (a person probably around twice my age) was the one who acted rashly and immaturely, refusing to solve the issue.

4. Employing the "cowardly" tactic of going behind people's backs to skirt the ban; false

For the record, I only DM'd two people on the Tenchiforum Discord to find out what happened, and one of those was just an initial attempt to get a message to Dagon before I remembered that he had a Twitter account. And secondly, it is incredibly hypocritical of Who to say that I was acting "cowardly" when Dagon was the one who banned me from the server without a single warning or message beforehand!

Now, this is pure speculation on my part, but based on the two-week time lapse between what I said and Dagon seeing what I said, I believe that Dagon was actively looking for a reason to ban me from Tenchiforum. It was clear to him and anyone else on Tenchiforum Discord that I did not approve of Dagon suddenly making his new wiki, and instead of putting up with a dissenting (yet respectful and non-harassing) opinion, he wanted an excuse to silence me. So, he took his time and eventually found one, as far-fetched as it may seem to other people.

So that's about the long and short of it. I made a single, somewhat disparaging remark about Dagon on Tenchi.fandom wiki, and two weeks later, he found out about it and terminated me with extreme prejudice. My attempts at reasoning with him and apologizing have come to nothing, as he's blocked me on social media and his right-hand-man Who has publicly ostracized me with complete falsehoods.

At this point, I think my chances of ever getting unbanned are dim, but I'm not too bothered by it. There are other Tenchi Muyo! communities besides Tenchiforum, such as this one, and I have other anime interests (such as Oh My Goddess!).

But here are my final thoughts on the matter: Tenchiforum deserves better. Much better.
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2022, 10:54:29 PM »
 

Dr.Soviet

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Please keep the thread civil I don't want this to be an us vs them discussion, most of the non-admin people on there have no idea what is going on and aren't you're enemy and prolly even have accounts on both sites.

That being said please consider helping out the Tenchi wiki when you can :parrot:
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2022, 10:59:37 PM »
 

DishonorableKnight

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Please keep the thread civil I don't want this to be an us vs them discussion, most of the non-admin people on there have no idea what is going on and aren't you're enemy and prolly even have accounts on both sites.

That being said please consider helping out the Tenchi wiki when you can :parrot:

Very much this. Tenchiforum isn't a bad place, it's just the admin that I have a problem with.
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2022, 01:35:14 AM »
 

جبريل 無道

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This forum was initially started as a fallout with TF/Dagon and Dr. Soviet. I was another such fallout prior to TF (and Dagon could say the same with me, we both split from a prior past board to get the heck away from each other).  However, I think I witnessed a further 4 or 5 such TF member fallouts afterwards, some of them joined here. Others just went on a rampage or crusade against TF and let everyone everywhere know it before things settled down. It seems you got a taste of why.

The short story of the Tenchi Muyo fandom history is that some groups just ought to be segmented and not forced to play together. Just how things go.

I'm not even a particular Kajishima fan in that regard. But if people like his story, let them?
Visit Tenchi's Girls Facebook Group for everyday pics and random info.
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2022, 05:29:24 PM »
 

antvasima

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I just want to say that Knight has been an awesome contributor to the wiki together with Ned, and that they are the reason for its vastly improved quality over the past year.

I can also confirm that Knight did not mean any harm to anybody at Tenchiforum, and he has repeatedly tried to accommodate fans of other Tenchi Muyo continuities, so we do not exclusively focus on the Kajishima canon.

Much like many others, I am not even a fan of how Kajishima has put aside the main cast that I really like, in order to focus on a sprawling network of side-characters instead.

In any case, I also do not want any drama between Useless Tenchi, Tenchiforum, and the Tenchi Muyo Fandom wiki.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2022, 05:46:01 PM by antvasima »
Please help out with improving the Tenchi Muyo wiki:

https://tenchi.fandom.com/wiki/Tenchi_Muyo_Wiki
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2022, 07:34:07 PM »
 

WaitoKon

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...but came back in late 2021 and soon after announced on the Tenchiforum website the creation of "tenchimuyowiki.com", his own personal Tenchi Muyo! wiki that ran on the same stuff as Wikipedia. As I found out, I wasn't the only one found wondering why Dagon would go through the trouble of creating a brand new Tenchi Muyo! wiki when there's already a wiki

I want to take a moment to first welcome you again to the Useless site and hope you're continuing to feel at home.

I want to likewise assume that during anyone else's exodus from TF, how it may have impacted mental health and otherwise necessitated a break from any Tenchi resources even, to reinforce that this is a most hospitable oasis perhaps the best around and I hope you continue to rely on its lightheartedness.

To the other point: worshipping Kajishima. I think we all know it was Kuroda who made the Choushin doll-sized.  :eng101:

That last part was a joke. No, not to add fuel to the flames, I just want to append something that I myself blanked on earlier when news first broke about the alternate TM! wiki.

https://www.fandom.com/community-creation-policy#Duplicate_wikis

Firstly, I do not represent Fandom in any capacity, apart from being one of the Tenchi wiki moderators past and present.

Now about the above link. Fandom refuses to publish duplicate Wikis locally. So to that effect, yes, sites like Tenchiforum as well as the broader retweet and blogosphere are allowed and encouraged to make a mirror elsewhere in the spirit of "increasing the amount of free content in the world". Though I want to caution that it is a cumbersome process as only free-license displayed text, not the page source (the latter being part of Fandom's commercial property) counts as the user-generated content at least by my limited understanding of web design. And while Fandom does not require attribution or "jump back" links to the primary source, I want to show you the evolution of the TenchiForum wiki:

Quote from: Archive(dot)org snapshot Feb 1 2022 | Date accessed Mar 1 2022
  • Four Captures of Tenchimuyowiki.com/Main_Page as recent as 28 Feb 2022

Now to compare with the Fandom activity that same month: https://tenchi.fandom.com/wiki/Special:RecentChanges

I'm popping over to the 23 February entry regarding the True Tenchi Jurai volume page among the recent changes. My conjecture is the latest snapshot of the TF Wiki's own light novel category might reveal something of consequence.

However, efforts to save the page indicate it is not yet live: https://web.archive.org/save/https://tenchimuyowiki.com/index.php?title=List_of_light_novels

So, for now we wait.  :shy:
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2022, 09:32:46 PM »
 

DishonorableKnight

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...but came back in late 2021 and soon after announced on the Tenchiforum website the creation of "tenchimuyowiki.com", his own personal Tenchi Muyo! wiki that ran on the same stuff as Wikipedia. As I found out, I wasn't the only one found wondering why Dagon would go through the trouble of creating a brand new Tenchi Muyo! wiki when there's already a wiki

I want to take a moment to first welcome you again to the Useless site and hope you're continuing to feel at home.

I want to likewise assume that during anyone else's exodus from TF, how it may have impacted mental health and otherwise necessitated a break from any Tenchi resources even, to reinforce that this is a most hospitable oasis perhaps the best around and I hope you continue to rely on its lightheartedness.

To the other point: worshipping Kajishima. I think we all know it was Kuroda who made the Choushin doll-sized.  :eng101:

That last part was a joke. No, not to add fuel to the flames, I just want to append something that I myself blanked on earlier when news first broke about the alternate TM! wiki.

https://www.fandom.com/community-creation-policy#Duplicate_wikis

Firstly, I do not represent Fandom in any capacity, apart from being one of the Tenchi wiki moderators past and present.

Now about the above link. Fandom refuses to publish duplicate Wikis locally. So to that effect, yes, sites like Tenchiforum as well as the broader retweet and blogosphere are allowed and encouraged to make a mirror elsewhere in the spirit of "increasing the amount of free content in the world". Though I want to caution that it is a cumbersome process as only free-license displayed text, not the page source (the latter being part of Fandom's commercial property) counts as the user-generated content at least by my limited understanding of web design. And while Fandom does not require attribution or "jump back" links to the primary source, I want to show you the evolution of the TenchiForum wiki:

Quote from: Archive(dot)org snapshot Feb 1 2022 | Date accessed Mar 1 2022
  • Four Captures of Tenchimuyowiki.com/Main_Page as recent as 28 Feb 2022

Now to compare with the Fandom activity that same month: https://tenchi.fandom.com/wiki/Special:RecentChanges

I'm popping over to the 23 February entry regarding the True Tenchi Jurai volume page among the recent changes. My conjecture is the latest snapshot of the TF Wiki's own light novel category might reveal something of consequence.

However, efforts to save the page indicate it is not yet live: https://web.archive.org/save/https://tenchimuyowiki.com/index.php?title=List_of_light_novels

So, for now we wait.  :shy:

Sorry, but I really don't understand what you're trying to say.
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2022, 10:51:28 AM »
 

Nonsuch Ned

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I bet Dagan probably would have preferred to make his wiki through Fandom, but as you say- he wouldn't be allowed. So he had to make his own- without blackjack or hookers or support from a community.
...in my pants
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2022, 02:14:34 PM »
 

antvasima

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He could just have helped to improve our own after talking with us about what he had in mind instead though.
Please help out with improving the Tenchi Muyo wiki:

https://tenchi.fandom.com/wiki/Tenchi_Muyo_Wiki
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2022, 03:02:48 PM »
 

Nonsuch Ned

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He could just have helped to improve our own after talking with us about what he had in mind instead though.
Have you read through his responses to me on the Tenchiforum announcement there? He actually tries to turn it around on us and blames us for not going to HIM and asking HIM for HIS help.

I can tell you why I never thought to do it myself. Not that I would be likely to go straight to him, which he seemed to want us to do. The thing is, I may be a long-time Tenchi fan, but I'm a newbie to the fandom- and until I got curious thanks to his responses, I never bothered with Discord. So... I honestly had no idea TenchiForum was supposed to any sort of an active entity of Tenchi Fandom. Their actual web presence on the actual webpage is practically null. It purported to be a fan site but hadn't posted any content about anything since Tenchi Ai. To me, it was dead.
Why the hell would I post in a dead forum to try to recruit help?
...in my pants
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2022, 05:33:43 PM »
 

antvasima

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Yes. Agreed. That is very strange behaviour.
Please help out with improving the Tenchi Muyo wiki:

https://tenchi.fandom.com/wiki/Tenchi_Muyo_Wiki
 

Re: The Circumstances of my Ban from Tenchiforum
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2022, 07:43:05 PM »
 

WaitoKon

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Sorry, but I really don't understand what you're trying to say.

I felt the post was running over length wise so left it kind of open-ended, but suffice to say, the issue with questioning or invoking however strongly worded condemnation of the mere presence of a rival Tenchi wiki is moot, due to the Fandom site not allowing duplicates. While, again, I am not fully versed on Fandom limitations, it seems at first glance that whoever parks the "tenchi" part of *.fandom.com gets to establish themselves as the only Fandom-approved Tenchi resource.

However, I am ready to retract my stance, that of establishing an off-site mirror (which Fandom encourages for keeping information accessible in the long term) is the only grey area which seems acceptable. Indeed, we can expect some slip-ups. I've taken the liberty of setting up archive snapshots, although that is only to compare sources of article edits for signs of ripping Fandom property wholesale.